Tuesday, July 08, 2008

You Can't Screw People Over Forever...


Austrians still believe in compound interest...that is the cause of inflation...Lets say you are a King and you impose a tax...that is what compound interest is...a tax...rich mans tax...

Now he employs a person to wipe his ass...all the farmers have to pay the tax so that the king can feed the guy that wipes his ass...What if crops are bad? And the farmers can't pay the tax? Then the King sends other people - soldiers - that the taxes pay for...and they extract what they can...and if that doesn't work out then you invade and conquer...

Without an expanding money supply the tax eventually sucks up all private property in the system and concentrates it...If Gold is money...compound interest will eventually suck it all up in to the hands of the few...Then those who need money have to rent it from the top...No escape...Eventually the top just rents out paper instead of gold to keep the slaves happy...

Unless you rise up and kill the King...

What do those idiot Austrians suggest when the bottom can't afford to support all the King's ass wipers...or his team of Austrian economists...

Send out the fvcking death squads? And shake the slaves upside down over wheelbarrels...

I battled the Austrians...they refused to answer my questions...

"Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment for economists." -John Kenneth Galbraith

How is a King going to be punished for paying someone to wipe his ass...with the interest you pay on the money he rents to you so you can pay the interest and tax he uses to pay his ass wiper or the soldier he sends when you refuse to pay the rent or the tax? Or the whip he buys to whip you to increase your productive capacity...

'I'll help you but I expect more help in return'...You can flush daydreams of honest money down the toilet if that's your attitude...I need no incentive to take advantage of people for my own selfish desires...

Now you want to make it a universal law?

The law according to some is that compound interest must be allowed so that people who have, have an incentive to take more than they give from those who are then forced to give more than they take...

Legalized swindling is really what that is...

The person has -100 units of food and is starving and I have 1000...So that in order for them to live another year they should agree to going deeper into the hole by -120 units of food? After that put them on starvation rations throw a chain around their neck and huck them in the mud brick pits until they die...right?

I'm King, you either worship me or die...hahahahah...

Yes it is amazing all the technolgical wizardry we have...but nothing has changed in 6000+ years...it's all cosmetic...an illusion...a debt inflationary illusion that is about to end...

A fractional reserve system with compound interest so I can fund the military to hunt down people that bother me...

I'm just pointing out the mechanics of it all...

My point is that we're told there has to be compound interest or there will be no incentive to rip people off...I'm saying that you don't need compound interest as an incentive to rip people off...

Just find a starving slave and put them to work for half the usual amount of food...no need to rape them with interest charges on top of that...

The Absolute capitalists are supported by compound interest...without it they would be forced to be productive...they would be forced to contribute...

The rich control the government - all the problems are from taxes and compound interest...

The two major planks of the Communist Manifesto call for a graduated income tax system and a central bank...both the Federal Reserve and IRS were implemented in 1913 in the USA... In 1917 in RUSSIA they had a similar system to the US a decentralized fractional reserve banking system...a free market...then after the revolution a Central bank and tax system was imposed...

During the civil war the British and French supported the South...the only support the North had was Russia...they sent their fleet to blockade the English and French and cut the supply lines to the South...

The US is a Communist country, according to Marx once at least 5 of the planks are in operation...all 10 are in operation now...

It is all an absolute capitalist smoke and mirror show...there is no Communism or Socialism...etc they are sales pitches to fool weak minds...It is all a means to an absolute capitalist end...absolute power...rule the planet...

I'm just trying to point out reality...the rulers of the world have no solutions...you either worship them or die...

You don't need compound interest to operate a monetary system...the end...end of story...It is a complete scam...Wait until the system blows up in all your faces then it will become crystal clear...what I'm talking about...

Barter will not work...for an advanced civilization...

You need a medium of exchange...if you attach compound interest to it...it will get concentrated at the top very quickly until nothing is left at the bottom then the bottom has to rent from the top and ultimately the only way to pay rent is to borrow more and more and more...until you can't at a personal level you are shaken over a wheelbarrel at a macro level the entire fantasy you believe in blows up in your stupid faces...the end...

Here is the exact problem you are all struggling with...

'Hyper if there is no compound interest and I don't want to contribute to society how then am I going to exist if I can't live off compound interest?'

You will have to do something radical...contribute to society...Instead of milking it...It is that simple...

Forget the mumbo jumbo about risk...If they can't pay, they can't pay...whether you don't expect more than you give or if you expect 20%.

And the argument that you need compound interest as an incentive to help people is the most stupid thing I've heard in my entire life...

Taking more than you give is not helping anyone...sorry...It's as simple as that...

It's called stealing...It called taking advantage of someone in need...It's called ripping them off...kicking them when they are down...contempt...

But Hyper what's the solution? There must be a legal way to take more than you give...

No sorry...You gain power and then pass laws to make it legal and hire soldiers to impose your will...There is no legal way to steal...

The system is going to implode because everyone believes taking more than giving is A-OK...Have for 100's of years...

I don't know what any of you are crying about then...Why am I here? What info are you looking for? Some scam or hot tip? I'm giving them to you...some easy score...entertainment?

It is simple, study absolute capitalism and start your own empire...there are plenty of books...and it is simple...What's the matter? Don't have the guts to rape and pillage? To Kill and destroy? Command armies? To order the liquidation of millions of depleted units of human capital? Absolute capitalists have a different religion than the slaves...that could be it...

Beats me why you all resist the truth...why ask questions that you don't ever want the answers to?

You do not need compound interest to operate a monetary system...The only reason you would need compound interest is if you did not want to work for a living...If you did not want to contribute to society...

You think you need a loan to start a farm? What kind of retarded world do we live in? You find a chunk of land and work it boy...thats how you get a farm then with the production you trade...for lets say tools...

What are you talking about a farm? The whole thing including the freaking farmers and then you just sit there and take your cut and do nothing, Oh except keep tabs on them to make sure they are being as productive as possible because you have expensive tastes? And the bankers need their cut also...and they have even more expensive tastes...You are doing the farmer a big favor...

This is good I had no idea peoples minds were so rotted out...

Without compound interest there is no incentive to create farms...A human brain ceases to function without compound interest...

Human beings can not exist without compound interest...

On the first day GOD said let there be compound interest, and there was compound interest and it was good...


'So once again, let me ask, If you don't already own the land, and nobody is willing to loan you moeny to buy it, how is one to farm? (You should be able to answer this in 20 words or so, it's a very simple question)'

You walk up to a farmer and say, can I lend you a hand friend...Labor is useful right? It can be offered...It is called helping another member of the human race...

Or You and your band of absolute capitalist thieves take it over...and extort protection...

Any interest charged is bad...I see the problem in my use of simple sorry...

Here is an example...for lending...1000 units plus 10% for 10 years would work out to a payment of 9.16 units per month total owed after 10 years is 1100 units

Amortized at 10% for 10 years it works out to a payment of 13.22/month total owed after 10 years is 1586 units

Now what if the above were for 30 years

1000 + 10% for 30 years would be 3.06 units/month total units due after 30 years = 1100 units

Amortized at 10% for 30 years would be 8.78 units/month total units due after 30 years = 3161 units

I wonder what is the cause of inflation? Compounding interest...

Amortization will turn a hard money system fractional until the gold reserve shrinks in relation to the debt and then when the gold no longer works as a basis then debt is fractionally reserved and when that does not work the system implodes...

Each level gets shorter and shorter...the gold backed fractional reseve system lasted 278 years...then the gold reserve shrank in relation to the debt created until the US ran out of gold to back its debt in 1971 then debt became the backing...and it has lasted for 37 years and is about to implode...

Anyway you slice it Interest and compound interest specifically is the cause of inflation...

It can all work but there are those who don't want to work for a living...They just want Big Ben to save them...

I never have really understood why those who live off those who do the work have so much contempt for those who are making their dreams come true...

Compound interest is the cause of inflation...the end...I'm not on some crusade...

Nobody held my hand...and I figured it out...I've pointed it out...it is up to you from this point to figure it out as best you can for yourself...

But you can't because compound interest is your GOD...

It took 314 years of centralized fractional reserve banking to get here...The only time you can change the system is when it completely caves in...or You cave it in and start from scratch...There is a chance that this cave in will be enough...

The previous system prior to the FED was decentralized fractional reserve banking...It is as free a market as you can get...In a decentralized market implosions are localized...Central banks nationalize and globalize them...

You have to have something to lend if you want to lend...What do you think? Bankers create money out of thin air...er a...hey they do create credit out of thin air...and charge interest on it...and accountants are in on the action too...

The system is functioning like it is designed to function...It inflates debt to its maximum potential then implodes...compound interest accelerates this process...

This current system is 314 years old...wars and conquest have sustained it...The collape in Russia was caused by the USA...It was a looting operation. It has reached maximum potential...and is going to implode... a hyperdeflationary implosion of the money supply which is composed 100% of debt...

The primary reason?

INTEREST BUT COMPOUND INTEREST SPECIFICALLY...end of story...

The lending of money/medium of exchange with interest attached...

The secondary reason?

FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING ITSELF...THE CREATION OF CREDIT(Money) OUT OF THIN AIR...end of story...


Those who have farms are productive and can only be so productive...to increase production the division of labor must be increased...it is that simple...You don't need Interest of any kind to encourage that...next I suppose I will be told that men and woman would not have sexual relationships without compound interest...

GOLD? Unless you ban compounding interest attached to the medium of exchange a gold system will collapse...it is as simple as that.

If you have a static monetary supply and attach interest to it that is greater than the production of new money (In the case of Gold, Gold mining) then the entire static supply of money will concentrate at the top of the economic food chain and the only way for the money to circulate is for those at the bottom to rent it from the top...

Eventually all property that the bottom has is then offered up as collateral to the top to back up the loans...and since the supply of money is static the interest realistically can only be paid by continual borrowing...until one by one each person defaults and any property thay have is taken away from them and they become renters...living standards at the top increase massively and cave in at the bottom...

The only way to solve this is to then fractionally reserve the gold and expand the money supply with paper and the same process works all over again until the debt or dynamic portion of the money supply grows to a point that it outstrips the GOLD monetary base and a default happens when GOLD is demanded as payment for the debt and none exists...then the system is switched to a debt backed system the entire money supply becomes dynamic and the backing system uses debt as a monetary base to create new debt...

The process of the leverage of levearge runs until everyone borrows all they can borrow or the maximum amount of their income which is previously created debt is used as a basis for the creation of new debt (Borrowing) then the system implodes, the circulation of debt money contracts, and the division of labor collapses...

The US was founded by mostly responsible capitalists...If they would have known how the fraction reserve banking system worked...Compound interest, Interest attached to the medium of exchange...would have been banned...It is as simple as that...

Interest and compound interest will destroy anything it comes in contact with...

All compound interest does is inflate...Imagine if you forced the population to expand by 5% a year...eventually you would reach maximum potential and then the population would collapse...

Interest and compound interest are the primary drivers of inflation...end of story

If any of you think a gold system will last in an interest and compound interest environment you are fools...totally...

All you have to do is charge higher interest than gold production and in a very short amount of time you will own everything including the GOLD mines....You will be King...Then with Taxes and interest you can maintain a military to attack other kingdoms...

You don't like tyranny...then interest and compound interest must be banned...

The only reason our system needs compound interest is because it is a component of it...the system if started from scratch would not need it and its lifespan (Time until theoretical implosion) would be massively extended...

But since you are all a bunch of airheads addicted to the GOD of compound interest which you think is your savior you are damned...the end, end of story...the Austrians have some ideas but are just as foolish...

The current system which is 314 years old has reached maximum potential and is about to implode...why?

Because that is all it can do, inflate debt to its maximum potential then implode...and the primary cause is interest and compound interest attached to the medium of exchange which in a debt backed by debt system is debt.

I studied monetary systems for 10 years 9.99 years longer than the vast majority of you...and Absolute capitalism for 16 years 15.99 more years than the vast majority of you...I know more than Bankers, or Economists...

Sorry for not being able to articulate this well enough for you to understand...But if you have at least one brain cell that functions the above is a head start....

Maybe the hard work that farmers do keeps them honest...maybe they have respect...I love it when a bean counter foolishly thinks he comprehends farmers. I have never met an asshole farmer...

Compound interest is the incentive for two people to become friends and work together? Without that there would be no friendship?

Maybe in the depraved world of bankers and accountants...

A decentralized banking system works fine...the FED was created to have the power to create money out of nothing...So it can purchase unlimited amounts of cash which the treasury prints so that the commercial banks don't suffer bank runs...

Commercial banks can only inflate so far...the FED extends this ability is all...and regulates the credit market...

The whole system is screwed...those fighting us are those who don't want to contribute to the betterment of society or civilization...they are only interested in milking it...and us...they don't give a rats ass...in the slightest...they love the legalized swindle system...I would too if it worked but it doesn't it is 100% terminal...all it can do is inflate debt to its maximum potential (The maximum amount of milkers of society the system can support) then it implodes...that is all it can do...

And it is all about to come crashing down because of the system itself...

You have a choice...you can either screw people or not...

You have chosen the religion that says it's ok to screw people over...I have not...

The system is designed to screw the maximum amount of people over then cave in...

Because once the maximum amount of people milking the system dry is reached it implodes...

I say interest and compound interest attached to the medium of exchange is the primary cause of the screw over in the context of the system...

You believe in the religion where screwing people over is a ok...so you disagree...

Because if interest and compound interest attached to the medium of exchange were banned...it would mean you would have to work harder to screw people over...You do not like that thought...because you barely do anything now and can hardly handle it...

I've had enough...sure screwing people over is wrong...But it is more than that...the reason the system you depend on is going to implode is because you can't screw people over forever...

The system has reached maximum screw and you're screwed...and you don't give a shit...

Banks are not bad...If banks were a bad idea then storing grain would be a bad idea...My stance is as long as the Austrians think that attaching interest or compounding interest to a medium of exchange is ok...whatever economic model they come up with is doomed to subversion and then collapse...period...

At that point they are no better than any other economist or political scientist...

Once the interest problem is solved then the lifespan of the system is increased...then you have plenty of time to ponder the problem of the legitimate expansion of the medium of exchange in relation to resources and reproduction and Taxation...which is a more complex problem that needs alot of time to work out...

I don't say money can not be lent or borrowed...You can even affix an accounting fee to it...

No interest or compound interest should be attached to the medium of exchange period...

I said compound interest is the problem...We haven't even looked at at the monetary system itself to figure out a legitimate way to expand the money supply when needed would operate...Interest and especially compound interest has to go...You don't need it to run a free market and ultimately it leads to the implosion of the market...

The profit motive is not dependant on the existence of compounding interest...at all...

Here's the stance...

'Because my time is valuable I believe in Central fractional reserve banking with compound interest attached...I dont care if it implodes some time in the future as long as I get a quick fix now....'

Everyone loved Hitler...until reality set in...

Thinking in the now...what and how they want now to be or think it is...

As long as this current system functions...there is going to be no change...none...change will destroy it...If those Austrians touched it, it would implode...The system will inflate until it implodes...that is it...It can't be stopped...It is inflate or die...for 314 years...After it implodes...Then you can change things...

It has taken the system 314 years to evolve into what it is now...when it implodes it will take decades to recover if the wars are not too bad...it would take at least 70-80+ years to become as depraved and screwed up as it is now...all over again...

This cycle is called the responsible creation absolute destruction cycle...

...we are in this system...we are part of this cycle...

There is a psychological component as well...

The absolute capitalistic system has corrupted all...we are born as responsible capitalists...the system corrupts us the longer we are exposed to it...we are all suffering...

The vast majority of our thinking is corrupted...absolute self indulgent reason...the quick fix...

The system is going to implode any day within the next year...

The primary reason is compounding interest...that is it...

The system is going to cave in and it will be orders of magnitude worse than the Great Depression...

All the income you get now is borrowed and someone somewhere is paying the rent (interest) on it to sustain its existence...

It does not matter if I don't borrow...someone some where has to...or the system will implode...

The total money (Debt) supply of the US is 47 trillion...The entire population of the US must borrow the interest payment due on it to sustain the debt inflationary money supply...or it will begin to contract and implode...and the division of labor will collapse rapidly...

For the past 27 years exclusively the FED has dropped Interest rates on average of 83 basis points a year rates to make borrowing cheaper and cheaper to sustain the required amount of debt inflation needed to prevent implosion...

Eliminate interest and compound interest and this problem is eliminated...because the money supply can't be rented out and if it can't be rented out this problem due to "money renting" can't happen...

This is not a new problem...Interest has destroyed every monetary system in history where it was employed...The previous gold backed system was destroyed by it in 1971 so we switched to a debt backed...there is no system to switch to once this one reaches maximum potential...

You have no clue...ok? thats the truth and I'm trying to help...I'm doing the best I can before the cave in which is going to happen any day within the next year...

They all fail...every one of them...sorry in the entire 6000 years history...They fail because retards think they can't they fail and when a retard has any power he starts one up...Then when it fails he blames something or someone else...because A he is a retard and B the people who gave him the power are retards themselves or did not realize he was a retard...

"If a couch is $1000 and one wants to pay in increments, the producer could charge 100 per month for a full year, for ... 20% simple interest charge OR they could charge the customer 100 per month for a full year with the extra 200 to cover the "accounting fee". There is NO structural difference."

They would then be justified in taking a $1 stake and a $2 Hammer and driving the stake into the heart of Dracula...

Here's the problem...

If it is illegal to rent money out and I don't want to contribute to society how will I exist on the rent I charge on the money I lend to people if that is not allowed?

I will either have to become a criminal or contribute to society if this legalized stealing is outlawed...

The medium of exchange belongs to everyone...charging rent on it means you own it...Nobody should own the medium of exchange...

How can you have a free market if one person or group owns the medium of exchange...?

Answer you can't...the end, period...


All I have to do to become master of all is own the medium of exchange...

All the paper money in circulation in the US is owned by the FEDERAL RESERVE...

All the debt in circulation is owned by the Commercial banks...


Compound interest and interest attached to the medium of exchange will over time steal it away from all and put it into the hands of the few or one...

Gold, silver, property etc...It does not matter...

tyranny...


Time is running out...Implosion will happen any day within the next year...Your opinion does not matter to me in this situation...It is a critical life and death event...wake up...If you want to I guess...

Interest and compound interest attached to the medium of the exchange so it will be subverted and collapse...100% certainty...Interest and compound interest cause people to think less about contributing to society and think more about living off compound interest...

Ultimately the only way to maintain a compound interest income stream is to lie cheat and steal...The religion of taking more then you give has been instutionalized...

Eliminating interest and compound interest equations from the total algorithm removes the thinking about living off interest and compound interest...and forces people to accept the reality of being productive because that is the only viable option...

A bandit breaking into your house is more productive than a banker could ever dream in his wildest dreams of being...

As soon as a person comprehends compound interest...the vast majority want to do nothing more than concentrate wealth and rent it out...

The productive people in society can only support a finite number of "welfare cases."

You like implosion then you like interest on the medium of exchange...

You no likey implosion then you no likey interest on the medium of exchange...

It is that simple...

If I lend you $100 I expect $100 back...see any evil? nope...

Whether I charge them nothing or crank them for 20% and they don't pay I'm still out...end of story...

Interest and compound interest attached to the medium of exchange is a bad fruit...

The creation of the medium of exchange out of thin air is a bad fruit...

The system is about to implode...interest and compound interest are the cause...

Lets say the money supply is gold...all you have to do to subvert...

Subvert...people that do not want to work for a living are basically evil...like criminals don't want to work for a living...subversion...is what evil does...

Lets say the money supply is gold...all you have to do to subvert the system is to lend at a higher rate than gold is mined...the higher the better...You goal is to amass enough gold to take control of the gold mines...

It will only be a matter of time until you own all the gold...he who has all the gold makes the rules...

Once you have all the Gold then everyone if they want to use it must borrow it...The next thing you are after is all the property...

Do you see where I'm going yet?

The key to society is to be able to identify those who are subverting the system...Interest and compound interest attached to the medium of exchange will subvert the system...

Instead of people thinking of how to be productive all they want to do is live off interest...

Right now the subversion is so thick it is considered normalcy...that is one reason why most can't see how bad it truly is...Or comprehend what I'm taking about...Or realize how important it is...

Once a society can not tell the difference between right and wrong good and evil...it's over...back to the drawing board...

Thats where we are going...any day within the next year...it will all come crashing down...

And these unfortunate fools who believe that taking more from society than you put back in will be forced to accept the truth and see what that religious conviction produces....their doom...

Of the 130,000,000 people in the US Workforce 71% are in the service industry... 22% are actually productive...

When this debt inflationary self delusional bubble pops...the collapse in the division of labor will be sickening beyond belief...

The Primary cause is Interest and compound interest attached to the medium of exchange...

The Secondary cause is because the medium of exchange is debt produced out of thin air...


Or it could be that we are all a bunch of wickedly selfish assholes that think we are GOD's gift to the Universe...

23 comments:

mannfm11 said...

Exceptional and deep. The finish is really good because we don't know where we are. I read a book called the Lost Cause, written about the Civil War in 1867 from a southern perspective and the author said that the marginal advantage that the North had in controlling the US government was enough to bankrupt the south in less than 30 years. As I wrote the other day, I don't know how to change this, but I do know the use of fractional reserve banking and the guarantee against loss in lending has to be ended. I beg to differ about the Austrians as Von Mises was against fractional reserve banking and I believe they knew that interest could only go on so long and those that couldn't pay and those that couldn't collect had to take their losses. I can see your problem being that in this world, the top already has almost the entire supply of what is going to be money this time, the last time and next time and if they don't have all of it, they have enough of it that they will get the rest of it. I heard a guy on a tape once state that currency wasn't what you had, but what you owed and that is why they called it a bill. The Fed issues non interest bearing notes in return for interest bearing US debt. It takes more currency than exists in the world to pay the debt owed the Fed at any given time.

MoT said...

If there is no interest (or accounting fee) attached to the Money, then there is no Incentive to Lend it to anyone.

Sure someone can go Farm. But what about, say, buying a piece of machinery. Maybe a $500k piece of machinery. If a person could Save $100 a week, it would take them 100 years to acquire it.

You could say, the price will drop to make the sale. And that may be true. And if so, wages would also be less accordingly. And the machine would still take 100 years to acquire.

The machine might have an intrinsic cost of $500k. And so the manufacturer Lends you the money... here, sign here and pay us back the $500k over ten years, plus $1 contract fee.

Even this $1 contract fee, taken to its end, will implode the system. But that $1 fee, may really have been necessary to fund the paper and the envelope to send the contract to the Holder of Contracts.

If the seller is to pay, then They will slowly be out of business themselves.

So you identify the problem - interest - fine. What Solution do you offer?

A closed system.

So 100 people each have 100 tokens. One of them is a workaholic. And does everyone's lawn for a token. he now has 200 token and closes his business down. Eventually, with all spending the same, they will have no token and he will have 101. The shop owner will have heaps more. Because he paid less then he got in. And either one can now Lend token to the others. Same ol' shite again.

Onward. Will the system implode?

According to Dent - who studied birth data and correlated it with the stock market rises and falls - the rise and fall of the stock market matches the birth rate offset by many years. Thus, the Boomers high rate declines at some point, right? Well, the offset shows, thus... that 2008 is the year the stockmarket will decline and be in decline for a decade or more.

Will it happen? Or will the Currency be Revalued to disguise inflation and we start the ball rolling again.

BTW, in a closed system, people breeding and thus altering their expenditures sees the money gravitate towards fewer people.

I have no solutions. Just questions.

MoT

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

"If a couch is $1000 and one wants to pay in increments, the producer could charge 100 per month for a full year, for ... 20% simple interest charge OR they could charge the customer 100 per month for a full year with the extra 200 to cover the "accounting fee". There is NO structural difference."


Accounting Fee? It's interest plain and simple. Symantics is what you are using just like the politicians. If I start saving at 18 and stick with it until retirement, I have gone without in the here and now for future consumption. It's not evil, but rather intelligence. I have a plan. It's the irresponsible fools who use credit in the stupidest ways possible that screws the system up.

Austrians believe that an expansion of money and credit is inflation while a contraction in money and credit is disinflation or outright deflation. Period!

Forget about interest and spend more time on the hearts of men. Glass-Steagall was the barrier that kept animal spirits in check. Greed is the real problem as per the internal documents concerning all the acronym instruments unleashed on the world. Interest alone could never have spawned the debacle we are about to face.

Andrew said...

yes, but "interest" and "the hearts of men" are connected. as someone mentioned "incentive" earlier, why must this incentive be monetary? Why can't it be goodwill? This truly is a delusional and psychotic society. Nothing is static, all is set in motion. If any hierarchy exists it will move towards one extreme or another, currently we have one in which there is a "pyramid", currently at approx 60/30/10 poor/middle/rich - quickly moving to an 85/14/1 ratio with devastating and horrific real results. Unless the FABRIC of our earth systems are based on goodwill, love, and sustenance (i.e resource sharing, education, etc), rather than greed, power-basing, and competition (i.e. current system) then the direction of the perpetual motion i referred to will always lead to destruction no matter which way the pendulum swings.

loose money aka fiat leads to loose morals and then geometrically exponential decay within all of society's substructures, i.e healthcare, crime, nutrition, living standards, decency, mortality, etc. It degrades to full capacity.

Hell has always existed on earth, it's just the extent to which it covered the surface of the earth which is variable.

this is rinse and repeat. the failure of most people to comprehend and accept these cycles has to do with our dislocation from natural law, natural cycles, and biosperic cause and effect. all of which is becoming balanced very quickly, with devestating results for current living organisms (incl humans). The intentional hollowing out of the education system has produced a whole generation of "intelligent" people who have alot of trouble wrapping their minds around these facts that are written in stone by history both ancient and recent.

HT is going to great lengths to explain this to people. I think people are beginning to sort of kind of like maybe understand a little... =(

as a species we are still incredibly primitive. All species that have evolved past our current point and moved on to space travel, and are now observing us, know this already. The proof in the pudding are the laughable shenanigans you see portayed daily in the world news i.e. global politics, war mongering, propaganda and social engineering systems. It is all very blatant and obvious now only to a few, the rest seem to be chemically lobotomized. Reality truly is stranger than fiction in its UTTER IRONY.

MoT said...

"why must this incentive be monetary? Why can't it be goodwill?"

Because Goodwill will NOT put food on my table. It will not clothe me. Sure, I may be able to get Handouts - but - those handouts had to be created by someone first.

What happens in a System where people are rewarded for their effort by Goodwill is... people do less work than others and still get the goodies - food, clothing, shelter. Why bust my balls when the basic reward is the same?

The problem is not Interest attached to the medium of exchange. The problem is... we have a medium of exchange to begin with. And we choose to live.

Previously, I was not clear in my Closed System. So let me set the scenario and YOu follow it and adjust accordingly...

Everyone works in a bread factory. There is only one good sold in the system - bread. It sells for $1 per loaf. People are paid $10 per day. And need two different loaves per day.

Scenario: The population is fixed. 1000 people.

Total sales = 2,000. $2,000 in sales. At $10 per day wages and no profit to the company, only 100 people can be employed (90% unemployment).

To employ more people the wages have to come down (or real buying power of wages drops - prices rise in reality) - or - more bread needs to be sold.

The company decides to make a profit - afterall, the owner needs to eat too. So a system is worked out to make the same bread with one less person. Everyone now makes $10 per day - including the owner.

The owner says... screw this... I have all this extra work of sales and marketing and distribution and paying people, but get the same money as the guy standing on the line. As I have more responsibility, I deserve more money. There goes another worker - or, wages drop or prices rise.

The Only way is to drop production costs or increase prices. But a fixed system has limitations.

ALL things must expand/grow to live. An economy is no different. A fixed system will eventually die.

A fluxing system will eventually turn into a fixed system in a fixed area. And will also die.

There is no escape.

MoT

Striker said...

good grief, getta GRIP!

messianicdruid said...

"But you can't because compound interest is your GOD"

if truth is GOD and GOD is truth, and if truth doesn't make the rules, it only makes the Law, your g- o - d is an idol. an idol that is usurping the authority of truth by making and loving a lie.

your incentive to lend without usury is that you are lending to your brethren, and this builds trust between family members, if they renig on it no more trust deserve they until it is made right. all debts are moot at the sabbath year anyway. so one would be giving the gift if it went beyond that time frame.

"Will it happen? Or will the Currency be Revalued to disguise inflation and we start the ball rolling again."

The only revalue that would work would be a decimal point hijack, just move the period one digit... this would make a ten cent item sell for a penny, and a "dollar" item sell for a dime...

we gotta keep those pennies worth something or people will quit using them, i picked up two dimes in the gas station parking lot the other day... no one had the time or inclination to stoop over {work} and pick them up off the ground.

I kinda like pennies and nickels and dimes, I started working at age thirteen, bussing tables tables in a steakhouse resturant for fifty cents an hour. no tips, the waitresses got the tips... those people would leave pennies, nickels and dimes.

the hotel had an old elevator that required a human operator. the old man that I eventually replaced sold moonshine out of the basement.

I used to throw hay also, 1 cent per bail. we could haul one ton of hay on an old pickup truck. every trip to the barn was thirty cents.

back then you didn't get paid for your time you got paid for actual work, no paper shuffling, the hay got in the barn or the dishes got in the kitchen, or you didn't get paid.

i had been going to the store with a list for my mother for years, so I knew what money was, or at least I thought I did. a franklin half-dollar was a substantial piece of coin back then, it could keep you in candy and BBB {boston baked beans} for a week. life was good.

I had a ten speed bike to trade in on my honda super90. at fourteen you could drive a motorcycle back then, and a tank full of gas was about 1.25 which would take you umpteen miles... i had a little time for basketball.

yes, those old pennies, nickels and dime need to start recirculating. we are about at a point where a silver dime will still buy a decent amount of quality candy, if you can find anyone who still makes it. but if you spend it today you will regret it tommorrow because the dollar is disappearing. wait until it gets revalued, as described...

Anonymous said...

Man has no natural predator,none to speak of anyway; so maybe our Lord(s) created one for us with this system.

Andrew said...

MoT

we're arguing from different philospophical perspectives i think. your system is similar to our current system, in which there is individual responsibility to provide for one's own sustenance and incentive to build wealth. I'm arguing from the perspective that there should be no incentive to build wealth. Why isn't our goal to live in harmony, develop our resources responsibly, and put all of our technological efforts towards innovations and breakthroughs that would eventually have us join the federations of space travelers that figured it out a long time ago in far away places?

The current foundation of our entrie civilization is one based on accumulation of personal wealth and "individual" accountability. But as social beings living together on this planet that type of system only creates hierarchies designed to manipulate, concentrate power, etc.

Think about it. The only distinguishing characteristics humans have amongst each other are skin pigmentation and language. Besides those, we are almost identical in biological makeup. Yet these two differences are the foundation of millenia of conflicts leading to death, poverty, famine, and never to die grudges. Can you see how primitive we are? This is what I'm talking about.

We all share this teeny little rock in the vastness of space and we have no fucking clue what we're doing, at least the vast majority of us. The ones who have figured it out are the "top" - and they don't seem to be interested in sharing much of anything, or "leading" us in the right direction, do they?

The goal should be to efficiently and morally do away with the basic challenges facing mankind so that we can face the real frontiers. Those of inter-dimensional travel, zero point energy, exploration of this and other universes. Rather than killing each other over pagan beliefs and finite energy sources. Haha! We're like dogs who piss and shit in public! They have no concept of shame, nor should they! But can the same be said for mankind?

Maybe the fact that we use about 5-7% of our brainpower has something to do with it. I think that's changing, and with it greater awareness, yet it may not bear fruit before we destroy ourselves and have to "start over again" as HT puts it.

Think OUTSIDE the matrix!

Thunder said...

Hyper, I think you should be the author of a new age religion based on anti-slavery. It is really too bad that not a single religion on earth addresses the issue of usury.

Anonymous said...

"It is really too bad that not a single religion on earth addresses the issue of usury."

Nonsense...

.....That is a central tenet of true Christianity, (not to be confused with "judeo"-Christianity, of which, there is no such thing)...

MoT said...

Andrew,

Thanks for your additional thoughts.

"I'm arguing from the perspective that there should be no incentive to build wealth."

We all - yes, even animals in the wild have a sense of Property/Ownership. Be it possessions or territory. It is Inherent. If I have Zero chance of owning anything my incentive for effort is just enough to get by (and I'll most likely be living in a socialist/communist system as well). Without a sense of ownership I have no future. Without a sense of future value - I have a future and it has a value and can be worked towards - I again have no incentive to Strive, worker hard, etc., to better my current situation. And without such, we have No Progress.

"Why isn't our goal to live in harmony"

That is the line put forth by countless religions - love your fellow man, live in harmony, live for others. It is a line put forth by someone or some entity that is looking for a Slave/Master relationship. Where YOU, who buy into it, do the work for living in harmony. While those who suggest it run the show and live off of the fruits of your efforts. Churches become Mega Wealthy when their Flock buy into this.

All you end up with is a bunch of suckers. Those who choose not to live in harmony Take Advantage of those who choose to live in Harmony.

"The current foundation of our entrie civilization is one based on accumulation of personal wealth and "individual" accountability. But as social beings living together on this planet that type of system only creates hierarchies designed to manipulate, concentrate power, etc."

It is the live-for-others, altruistic concept that creates hierarchies and manipulation. Because it encourages people to Give Up their own needs for the needs of others - as determined by a Lord. Power is thus GIVEN to the overlord. And if you won't give it, they will try to Take It (force it out of you). But Physical power only gets so far. Better to CON the people into Giving it.

And BTW, we have anything But individual accountability. We have the opposite. Where people are encouraged NOT to be responsible. Wasn't their fault they stabbed themselves in the eye with a pencil - it was the manufacturers fault for not warning that eye damage could occur from the sharp object. Criminals, while sometimes being punished for their acts, can have their actions passed on to Bad Parents or singel parent or whatever else that Made them do it. It wasn't my fault is the mantra of the day.

"Yet these two differences are the foundation of millenia of conflicts leading to death, poverty, famine, and never to die grudges."

People do Not naturally hate a person of different color. That kind of behavior is Learned. And once learned it is Inflamed by so-called leaders. Be it a Muslim Imam telling the drones that woman are like pieces of meat left out for a cat and deserve any Assault that happens to them, or inciting them to violence or whatever. Be it some Christian Vicar/Priest leading his Flock to Burn witches. Be it Jesse Jckson stiring up Racial Tensions. And so on and so forth.

A person cannot Wage A War by themselves. They are Incited to, as a group, by their so-called leaders (those who they follow in one way or another). And their leaders have other desires that have nothing to do with skin color - heck, the various Tribes in Zimbabwe can't get along and they are all "black".

"Maybe the fact that we use about 5-7% of our brainpower has something to do with it."

Please, before continuing this 5% thing, double check your Source. And so I ask... Who Says we only use 5% of our brainpower? What Study showed this to be the case?

I Am outside the Matrix. I am so outside the Matrix it's not funny. People often think I am strange. I think I have been mistakenly beamed down to Stupid Earth instead of Intelligent Earth where I come from HA!

MessianicDruid...

"your incentive to lend without usury is that you are lending to your brethren, and this builds trust"

Ok. I feel you won't (or refuse to) understand why we need other than Goodwill/trust as incentive. So how about this...

You lend me $10,000 on my say so I will pay it back. How much Trust do you place in your fellow brethren to do the right thing. And when they don't, how much more Work are you willing to do to accumulate another $10k and Lend it on trust?

MoT

Anonymous said...

Hyper,
I would be most interested in how you think a new system without compound interest might work. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

The medium of exchange can only be rented if it's hoarded. If it can't be hoarded, the "compound interest" problem disappears.

Here's a simple solution. Imagine:
- electronic gold
- electronic silver
- electronic copper
- etc.

Pay in electronic gold and receive electronic silver. That could be implemented now with today's technology and existing banking system. Someone takes a vig on the exchange, but it would be impossible to hoard all possible mediums of exchange.

Anonymous said...

Another solution:

Remember people's promises and the result. That's all the medium of exchange does: it let's two people trust each others' promise to deliver value.

You trust your buddy to give you that CD in exchange for helping him fix his flat tire. That trust comes from remembering his previous promises. So do the same electronically. Then 2 people who don't know each other can trust each other.

This is also possible with today's technology. Medium of exchange becomes entirely fluid and determined by the 2 people in the transaction. Ie. it can never be hoarded and is only limited by people's desire to transact.

HYPERTlGER said...

That post was a repost of an older post...

The primary cause of inflation in human affairs...is reproduction...the primary cause of inflation within monetary affairs, which is of course a part of human affairs...Is interest attached to the medium of exchange.

Mannfm11...Interest attached to the medium of exchange is the cause of fractional reserve banking...not an effect of fractional reserve banking.

If you are for interest attached to the medium...Then you are for fractional reserve banking without any need to state you are...as soon as you demand more back than you give...You are fractionally reserveing...

Ultimately there is no solution to the problem except implosion.

Of course once you choose to cause the problem...

the only way to escape the problem is to choose not to cause the problem.

Unfortunately when the time comes to choose...the top is there waiting and at that critical point all the power the top has is used to force the bottom into following the path of least resistance...

The bottom has been choosing to cause this problem over and over again for 1000's of years.

If I put a gun to your head and tell you to kill another person or I kill you...and you choose to kill another person...

It's your fault...

Sure the top has made the right choice hard to make but you all still can choose the right path...

But what is the right path?

Do as I say and be rewarded or fail and suffer...

As long as you all choose to attempt to escape suffering...All you will do is follow the path of least resistance to it's logical conclusion...

Like a lightning bolt...or bacteria...

You all can of course choose to follow the path of most resistance...

guess what...of all the things and of all known life...In the Universe...

Human beings are the only thing within the Universe that have an ability to choose to follow the path of most resistance.

Everything else...Is oblivious and follows the path of least resistance by default.

The top does not want those below them to stop worshiping the top...The top wants all below to follow the path of least resistance...

It's why the top use the power the bottom gives them to keep all below oblivious.

Of revelation.

Anonymous said...

"Human beings are the only thing within the Universe that have an ability to choose to follow the path of most resistance."

Excellent observation, HT. I can see clearly that the simple act of choosing the easy way out is what activates 'guilt' 'fear' 'self-hate' 'depression' and a whole host of other debilitating elements of internal conflict. The only way we can rid ourselves of those feelings or at least learn to live with ourselves is by way of drugs, alcohol, entertainment, government, insurance, weapons, porn, etc.. The top gives us what we want and it has side effects; it keeps us anesthetized.


Revelation...Yes it is.

MoT said...

Human beings are the only thing on the planet that can choose to self terminate. Everything else fights to live.

Guilt, self hate, etc., are not caused by yourself - or by you accepting to be that way. You do not need Drugs to deal live with yourself.

I have no guilt or self hate or depression. I also consume no drugs - not even coffee. The only person that can get you down is You! (Even if someone else is trying to make you feel guilty or not worthy.)

The Logical Conclusion may be to implode (reset) and start again. And this may be deemed the path of least resistance - by HT. But what is the alternative? An Agrarian society where there is no progress and we live off the land in small communities. Like the Amish.

For those advocating to reject our current system of "interest and a medium of exchange" I say... Unless you are shunning the things progress has brought you (progress comes because of our sense of future value due to our ability to work towards something major thanks to Interest and an agreed upon medium of exchange - money), and are thus Leading By Example, you are a hypocrite.

Of course, there is a difference between Informing people of a problem - and - suggesting alternatives and not pursuing those alternatives yourself - as politicians do any time they Suggest to use public transport while they take private jets and drive in limos.

As for Hording and Electronic Currency. Most Currency Transactions are done electronically now. When a House is purchased the money is all Electronic. I despise the day physical currency is removed. Of course, people will adopt their own form of physical currency - which the govt will call illegal, black market, etc.

It is wise to Prepare for a tough time ahead - some money in reserve, food in reserve. And if you want to join a Back To The Earth movement, then do so, so you'll learn some Survival Tips. And certainly grow your own food. Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

All money comes from other people.

MoT

Anonymous said...

"For those advocating to reject our current system of "interest and a medium of exchange" I say... Unless you are shunning the things progress has brought you (progress comes because of our sense of future value due to our ability to work towards something major thanks to Interest and an agreed upon medium of exchange - money), and are thus Leading By Example, you are a hypocrite."

MoT..you call it progress. Sure, we have more toys, bigger houses, instant communication, ipods, wii and what have you. But how have we progressed as human beings. Not you specifically... in general.

Progress implies improvement.

How can you claim progress when here we are again heading for another depression and yet another war.

Looks to me like a lot has been accomplished... we've gone full circle and ended up exactly where we started.

I sure don't have any answers as to how it could be different. But reading the blog and the comments have been an education.

Anonymous said...

You may consider the Agraian Homestead a step backward, but it is stable. If nothing but this single attribute lent itself to an ideal that was both desirable and doable by the salt-of-the-earth people, then you can Amish loving arse.

I've been told that they have a system of enpowering a young newlywed couple by contributing and amount to the most senior among them, beginning the day a child is born. This man buys land near Amish communities and either leases it, or turns it directly over to the young Man and his wife, debt-free.

Perhaps you can see why this practise makes a king of a man, and his wife a queen, their children; princes and princesses.

zerrubabel said...

the goobermental peebles have gone broke taking upon themselves {usurpation} the right {?!} to rule & make life and death decisions for unruly people without permission. leave the pieces when you go. some of us will still be around to build the kingdom on the ruins of the Emerald City.

mannfm11 said...

This is an interesting thread. What HT wrote below my initial quote was great. I have been debating this interest game for about 10 years. Prohibition against interest in Deuteronomy is about as close to absolute as the prohibition against murder. Damn clear that you are selling your future when you borrow. It is also clear that one cannot pay back more than they borrowed, which is what happens when bank lending is done. I can kind of buy into the debt/equity kind of lending where one puts up their cash for a return out of an entity, but even then what HT says is pretty much true. For if I have most of the money and I draw interest on most of the money, even at risk, I end up with all the money and all the property. Even if I don't have most of the money, but quite a bit of it, if I can draw a return off my cash, my proportion of what is out there will increase. That said, one has to be really stupid to let go of his money in such a system or borrow it from others at interest. I'm not sure what to do, but I do know that implosion is part of the game here and I accept that. Without this system, man might be in the cave still and look at all the bull crap we would miss out on. One of the things supposedly in operation during biblical times was called the Jubilee, which forgave all debt every 50 years. A test of ones generousity was whether they would make a loan close to the jubilee. It appears that debt is forgiven every so often whether we like it or not and it might become a good idea to get back to such a system rather than the implosion game we have going.

MoT said...

"Sure, we have more toys, bigger houses, instant communication, ipods, wii and what have you. But how have we progressed as human beings. Not you specifically... in general."

Um... is this going to get into a Life of Brian skit - yeah, but besides, better health care, streets, clean water, sewage, etc. what have the romans done for us...

Let me put it this way... even those on welfare today lead better lives than Kings and Queens of several hundred years ago. We have light at the flick of a switch, hot and cold inside running water, pills and potions for aches and pains, food a plenty, clothes for all seasons.

It is true that most people will come and go without adding anything other to human existance than other humans. But the achievement of what human beings, as a race, have done, is there for you to see when you look out of your window.

We can travel further in a day via commercial airline than people of old could travel in their entire life.

If you're are talking about the ability to think rationally. Then I am saddened that not much progress as a whole has been found. "The Madness of crowds and extraordinary popular delusions" still rules the day for the majority. But if you want to Look for ways in which humans have not Progressed, then you'll find all you want.

BTW, here is a link to a graphic of the Birth data / Stock price I mentioned elsewhere http://www.nowlive.com/viewer.aspx?id=115475

MoT